C6 Detent Question

[divemaster5734]

I installed a C6 that I rebuilt via U Tube University, and didn't have park.
Took a picture of the NSS, which shows the selector pointing at the middle sharpie mark.

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The mark on the left is Park, middle is Rev, and left is Neutral as determined with a meter.
With the gear selector in Park the transmission was actually in reverse.

I thought it was something I screwed up in the valve body when installing a stage 1 shift kit for diesel engines.
Got the pan and valve body off expecting to have full range on the detent, but that was not the case.
I notice the detent was not on the last notch and tried to adjust the position.

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It's hard to see, but the detent is on the 2nd to last notch.
Was able to get a 22mm box end around the throttle and onto the shifter nut.

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I was able to get the detent and shifter to line up with the NSS positions that count.
Was pretty damn smug about it until I realized I didn't have 1st or 2nd range on the detent operation anymore.
Going back and forth in the settings I thought I found a happy middle ground that only excluded 1st gear, and then realized I had no idea how tight the park rod fits into the back of the case to activate the pawl.

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The cone isn't tight into the pawl spring.
Before dropping the pan I did start the engine, allowed ATF to circulate for a few minutes, then gave it some throttle.
It should be noted that in order to start the engine I had to pull the NSS and set it to park laying on the floor as I couldn't hit the P position on the NSS, not realizing the NSS was accurate no matter how far out of adjustment the linkage was.
When it started to reverse with throttle when the selector was in park I stopped, the moved one notch, got neutral, and another notch got it to drive, and I moved it back the 6" and shut it down.
My questions- is there a minimum pressure required for the park rod to the pawl for park to work?
And- If I set it up without 1st gear available on the gear selector will it have any effect other than not being able to select 1st gear if desired?
The transmission is still installed, and I'm hoping to make whatever adjustments are necessary without having to pull it, as I've already installed the driveshaft's with new u joints and greased.
I've spent a few hours searching the web and haven't found anything on this adjustment.
Thanks

 

[XOLATEM]

I am wondering why the neutral switch is not bolted to the case..?

Something is not quite right...and I would like to help you...but I can't get past that...and the fact that I have to turn my monitor 090* to see what the heck is going on...

One other thing...the detent spring bolted to the case...for the rooster comb...is it straight...or did it somehow get a curve in it..?

On the park thing...the rod and/or the bulge in the rod needs to be spring loaded...so when some operator want to prove a point by tossing it up into park while moving...it will only ratchet until you are stopped...or close to stopping...

One other thing...and it may or may not be related....what did you use for band adjustment..?

I gotta get to work...

 

[divemaster5734]

Heh, I tried to limit the post by not listing every detail, of course the first person to read it is a eagle eyed mechanic.
I had started to pull the band anchor to get better access to the detent nut but then tried a different angle of attack.
I planned on a ban re torque once the link timing was done.
I pulled the NSS bolts as it was easier to reposition the switch as necessary.
The detent spring has a wide base that then tapers down to the roller. It's pretty hard to see sitting so deep below the detent.
I wasn't sure about the park operation. Yes, I took everything apart, and reassembled, but could tell there was something missing for park, and was pretty sure it was hydraulic pressure that was needed.
Thanks.
After posting it occurred to me that if all the moving parts are indeed mostly synchronized, or close enough to within a mm or two, then I can expect the park rod cone to go where it's supposed to go when the detent is put into park. In reality the only manual synchronization is the NSS to P, R, and N.
If that's true then I should just be able to count the notches to locate neutral, time everything to that, and once it's all put together then park should take care of itself.
By using neutral there won't be any pressure on the pawl or spring which complicates the heck out of trying to hold in place and bolt down.
Once weather permits I'm heading back out to test the theory.

 

[XOLATEM]

On your second picture...I am not liking the amount of gap you have from the rooster comb to the case...best I can remember...it should be closer to the case to keep the detent peaks and valleys centered on the detent spring roller.

Are you certain that you indexed the rooster comb to the lever shaft..?

It can go one of two ways...with the outside lever pointed the 'right' way...and it can also go with the lever pointed 180* off....and that usually results in some crazy direction that would not allow the other linkage to connect...

It has a semi-round area with two opposing flats to line up the rooster comb...

To get it put together right you have to place the notched portion on the detent spring and push slightly while lining up the lever shaft. position the rooster comb on the lever shaft and hold it in place while you thread on the nut...

Once you snug and tighten the nut...(not TOO much...you can break the lever shaft and then have some fun trying to find another one...)...you should not have any problem rotating the lever all through the ranges...

Forget about any idea of making do or deleting any ranges...it will just not end well...just take it all back apart...look at it real good....see w.t.heck I am talking about...and put it back together in the manner I just described..

When you go to put the valvebody on...make dog gone sure you have the manual valve lined up with the lever properly and then get the kickdown lever positioned so you can feel spring tension when you work the outside lever up and down...(did you put the o-ring inside the lever shaft that seals the kickdown lever from leaking..?)

Run all of the valvebody-to-case bolts in loose because usually two of them are going to fit snug to keep the valvebody indexed to the case so the manual valve will be in the right spot...once it is seated and all are snug...I used to torque them with an inch-pound torque wrench...around 100-110 inch pounds...after lubing them all with ATF.

If the pawl and spring and retaining plate are in correctly then you should get park when you lift up on the outside lever. (up as in if the unit is sitting normally...not vertically...)you might have to slightly rotate the output shaft to get it to 'click' in...

Do everything else and then it's off to the races...

 

[tbowker]

and the fact that I have to turn my monitor 090* to see what the heck is going on...

 

[divemaster5734]

Are you certain that you indexed the rooster comb to the lever shaft..?

It can go one of two ways...with the outside lever pointed the 'right' way...and it can also go with the lever pointed 180* off....and that usually results in some crazy direction that would not allow the other linkage to connect...

It has a semi-round area with two opposing flats to line up the rooster comb...

To get it put together right you have to place the notched portion on the detent spring and push slightly while lining up the lever shaft. position the rooster comb on the lever shaft and hold it in place while you thread on the nut...

Once you snug and tighten the nut...(not TOO much...you can break the lever shaft and then have some fun trying to find another one...)...you should not have any problem rotating the lever all through the ranges...

When you go to put the valvebody on...make dog gone sure you have the manual valve lined up with the lever properly and then get the kickdown lever positioned so you can feel spring tension when you work the outside lever up and down...(did you put the o-ring inside the lever shaft that seals the kickdown lever from leaking..?)


Do everything else and then it's off to the races...

Nope.
I didn't index the park.
Went out and played around a bit, then cracked open the ATSG C6 manual.
Dang.
At least I can leave all the drums, guts and oil pump in place, so there's that.
Just the output housing, I think the governor can even stay.
Going to pick up some 1/2" x 13 all thread for install dowels.
Appreciate your comments.

 

[divemaster5734]

On your second picture...I am not liking the amount of gap you have from the rooster comb to the case...best I can remember...it should be closer to the case to keep the detent peaks and valleys centered on the detent spring roller.

Are you certain that you indexed the rooster comb to the lever shaft..?

It can go one of two ways...with the outside lever pointed the 'right' way...and it can also go with the lever pointed 180* off....and that usually results in some crazy direction that would not allow the other linkage to connect...

It has a semi-round area with two opposing flats to line up the rooster comb...

To get it put together right you have to place the notched portion on the detent spring and push slightly while lining up the lever shaft. position the rooster comb on the lever shaft and hold it in place while you thread on the nut...

Once you snug and tighten the nut...(not TOO much...you can break the lever shaft and then have some fun trying to find another one...)...you should not have any problem rotating the lever all through the ranges...

Forget about any idea of making do or deleting any ranges...it will just not end well...just take it all back apart...look at it real good....see w.t.heck I am talking about...and put it back together in the manner I just described..

When you go to put the valvebody on...make dog gone sure you have the manual valve lined up with the lever properly and then get the kickdown lever positioned so you can feel spring tension when you work the outside lever up and down...(did you put the o-ring inside the lever shaft that seals the kickdown lever from leaking..?)

Run all of the valvebody-to-case bolts in loose because usually two of them are going to fit snug to keep the valvebody indexed to the case so the manual valve will be in the right spot...once it is seated and all are snug...I used to torque them with an inch-pound torque wrench...around 100-110 inch pounds...after lubing them all with ATF.

If the pawl and spring and retaining plate are in correctly then you should get park when you lift up on the outside lever. (up as in if the unit is sitting normally...not vertically...)you might have to slightly rotate the output shaft to get it to 'click' in...

Going through the manual I remembered why I ignored the park section.
Here's the paragraph on disassembly.

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Here's fig 31

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I didn't want to start drilling and tapping parts to pull that didn't need to be removed.
On the NSS it talks about using a #43 drill shank as a guide pin to line it up on three holes.
The only #43 drill shank I could find listed is a 43/64 drill, which is a monster over 1/2" diameter, and a lot bigger than the tiny hair size hole in the NSS.
I realize the manual was first written in the '60's and updated a few times, but I believe the version I have is a digitized 1989 version.
There's several places where a "fabricated tool" is required.
Am pulling the transmission out today and if there's any damage that prevents correct timing I found a junk yard 30 day one that can be delivered on Tuesday.
I started this project last summer with plenty of time to fiddle around and see what the inside of a transmission looked like, but now time is the most important commodity.
Have definitely learned respect for transmission builders.
One thing is for sure, I'll never take on an obsolete relic rebuild project again.

 

[XOLATEM]

I didn't want to start drilling and tapping parts to pull that didn't need to be removed.

Good call...that part of disassembly is un-necessary...

What you have there is most likely a reprint from a 'factory' manual...

There is going to be some stuff in there that can safely be ignored and/or modified as time and experience with the unit passes....

There's several places where a "fabricated tool" is required.

Yep...the transmission aftermarket makes a lot of that stuff for folks that want to buy it.

Have definitely learned respect for transmission builders.

Thank you very much...and...on behalf of the dwindling few that are left...please spread the good word around...

It used to irritate me to no end when people would try to denigrate the craft and play down the importance of fixing it right...mostly to try to run down the poor guy that just wants to do a good job and keep a stellar reputation...

...with the objective of paying little or nothing for the job...and still expecting a 'lifetime' warranty...

One of the reasons why I quit....just got tired of it.

One thing is for sure, I'll never take on an obsolete relic rebuild project again.

Aww...c'mon...you are just frustrated for the moment...what about the satisfaction of bringing something worthwhile back to life...and the respect and admiration you get from others...?

Let me see if I can find a suitable neutral switch indexing tool for you...

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-tpzbpl/products/516/images/1129/IMG_0219__76599.1490043189.1280.1280.JPG?c=2

The 090* one will probably work fine...

 

[IDIBRONCO]

It used to irritate me to no end when people would try to denigrate the craft and play down the importance of fixing it right...mostly to try to run down the poor guy that just wants to do a good job and keep a stellar reputation...

Off the subject a little bit, but kind of relevant and funny (at least to me). I knew an older guy who, 25 years back, used to try to cheap out on everything unless he was selling it. Then it was worth a fortune. He knew a guy who worked at a transmission rebuild shop. He would try to get by cheaply by having this other guy rebuild his transmissions on his own time, for quite a bit less money. Every one had to be pulled back out and redone. The old guy never learned. He was mostly a Ford guy, but would drive anything that he could get cheaply. The last time I know about a transmission rebuild, he and his wife had divorced, he had moved to southern Illinois with another woman who was just the best thing since sliced bread (single at the time). He came back to get the rest of his belongings. I helped him load his stuff Just to get rid of him faster. He was driving a 1997 Chevy 1500 that he had bought with a bad transmission, but it was cheap. He knew a couple of guys who were "ace" mechanics and had their own repair shop. He got them to rebuild the transmission and kept bragging about how good of a job they did. His ex wife still had some stuff in the house so she was there to get it. She and I watched him drive away, high and mighty, with all of his things in a horse trailer. I told her that I hoped he had better luck with their rebuild than he had in the past. She knew what I was talking about and we both kind of chuckled about it. In the end, he made it almost back to where he was living when the transmission went out. After the tow truck bill, it would have been about the same to have the transmission rebuilt by a professional shop. Sometimes, it just doesn't pay to try to do things the cheap way.

 

[divemaster5734]

Off the subject a little bit,

Not really, buying a used wrecker yard tranny has never been my preferred method.
Besides, I just figured out how to respond to multiple individual lines.
Was having fits trying to figure out how other folks were doing that.
Cool.

Sometimes, it just doesn't pay to try to do things the cheap way.

Which is why I decided to do my own rebuild in the first place.
Got the transmission out and on the table this afternoon, will tear into it tomorrow.
Using that tranny as a core deposit would almost be criminal considering there's all new steels, clutch plates, seals, bearings, etc., and all the air checks and tolerance checks were perfect.
The parts were between $700-$800, not sure because there was another couple hundred spent on specialty tools to do the job.
Think I was just suffering from diaper rash after discovering it had to come back out...

 

[tbowker]

On the NSS it talks about using a #43 drill shank as a guide pin to line it up on three holes.
The only #43 drill shank I could find listed is a 43/64 drill, which is a monster over 1/2" diameter, and a lot bigger than the tiny hair size hole in the NSS.

You may already be aware of this and I'm just busy running my mouth. But there are fractional, number and letter drills. The decimal equivalent of a #43 drill is .089, FWIW.